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Postby Alpiniste » Tue Jan 25, 2005 4:37 pm

Alby wrote: I actually think on these sort of roads a properly sorted 4 cylinder will be as fast as the V6 or even faster because it can be driven with more confidence.....
Anyway, if its of interest I'll start a new post with some details and thoughts as soon as I've got a spare hour or two. May be next week before I can do it.

I was thinking EXACTLY along those lines, smaller, lighter, less likely to get into problems :)
Yes please, post details !!
Thanks
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Postby Alby » Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:18 am

Hi Alpiniste,

Great minds and all that!! Yes I'll definately post the specs and mods of my 4 cylinder along with a photo or two next week. Mind you its about 3 months away from its first track action so some of what I'm doing will not be put to the test till then. I have had one good mountain road thrash in the car just before xmas and that seemed to me to support my ideas that it will be a great tarmac rally car. Even though the engine was still standard as was the rear suspension it was definately easier than the V6 to get near its limits without that sensation of rear weight transfer and potential slide. The quicker steering also meant I never had to take my hands off the 10 to 2 position. Anyway we'll find out soon.

Hi Alpineandy,

I love your yellow beast and it sounds like you've got the suspension very well sussed already. Re your tyres for road use, a couple of Alpine guys down here use those sizes for road and are very happy with them. The only possible disadvantage is slightly taller gearing from the higher profile but when I asked the guys, they said this is not really noticeable on the road. As the standard engine has so much torque in such a light car this seems to make sense. Different for track use as the gearing is already way too tall and I wouldn't do anything to make it worse.

Re using poly bushes, I wanted to do this on my V6 but my suspension guy talked me out of it on the basis that the Alpine already had quite direct response, partly through using fairly thin bushes, so there likely would not be much improvement and the time and money could be better spent elsewhere. I tend to agree with him now although I've never driven one with poly bushes to see how they impact.

Once you've fixed your shocker and done the brakes as you're planning, there's another fairly simple mod that took 1 second off my lap times and makes the car much more consistent, particularly on aggressive corner entry (I use trailing brake a lot, so this may not impact as much if you're a straight line braker). If you've got the full GT kit (I can't see the back in the photo) you will have already replaced the very heavy rear window and engine cover with the lightweight slatted version. If not, do it. the original is not only heavy, but the weight is up high and out the back! The engine cover is only a sound deadener on 310's so no harm in leaving it out and letting the hot air out through the slats certainly can't hurt.
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Postby Alby » Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:34 pm

Hi Alpineandy,

Just been having another look at the pictures on the site and realised there is a rear shot of your car. You're ahead of me again! Love what you've done to th rear and bet its a lot lighter than the original setup. Couldn't be used here as the rules for classic rallies don't allow this sort of bodywork mod.

Have you done anything to the engine or gearbox yet?

By the way, the site below has lots of pictures from an Alpine weekend here in Australia late last year. It was the first run for my still incomplete 4 cylinder which is shown in pictures Jee Bee 36, Rodney 00 and Rodney 09 - the bright blue one with the early type group 4 guards.

www.reality.sgiweb.org/mg/alpineweekend/
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Postby clee » Thu Jan 27, 2005 11:42 am

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Postby Alpineandy » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:28 pm



I know this car from when It was first imported.
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Postby Alpineandy » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:38 pm

Alby wrote:Hi Alpiniste,

Great minds and all that!! Yes I'll definately post the specs and mods of my 4 cylinder along with a photo or two next week. Mind you its about 3 months away from its first track action so some of what I'm doing will not be put to the test till then. I have had one good mountain road thrash in the car just before xmas and that seemed to me to support my ideas that it will be a great tarmac rally car. Even though the engine was still standard as was the rear suspension it was definately easier than the V6 to get near its limits without that sensation of rear weight transfer and potential slide. The quicker steering also meant I never had to take my hands off the 10 to 2 position. Anyway we'll find out soon.



The 4 cylinder is a nice car. I let one slip through my fingers in 1987, but If I had bought it then I wouldn't have had the money for my A110 which I bought in early 88.

On the 310/4, depending upon the regs you'll run to, the fact that injection was an option could be a big benefit. Having said that, it can get expensive getting over 125bhp from the 310/4 and the motor gets a bit peaky. Whereas the V6 has so much torque that it can be driven swiftly easily.
For some of these longer events where you need to drive at 95% I think the V6 May be a better option. But if your after short stage times then the 310/4 may well be better.
In My Opinion.
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Postby Alpineandy » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:46 pm

Alby wrote:Hi Alpineandy,

Love what you've done to th rear and bet its a lot lighter than the original setup.
/

http://www.renaultalpine.co.uk/KIF_1352%20sf.JPG
I assume you mean this picture.

The added whitewash from the tyres was not a lightening mod...

Apart from that it's standard at the back, although I will investigate replacing the engine cover when cash allows..


Alby wrote:Have you done anything to the engine or gearbox yet?


Not Yet. I'm tring to make it V reliable first.
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Postby Alpineandy » Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:57 pm

Alby wrote:Re your tyres for road use, a couple of Alpine guys down here use those sizes for road and are very happy with them. The only possible disadvantage is slightly taller gearing from the higher profile but when I asked the guys, they said this is not really noticeable on the road. As the standard engine has so much torque in such a light car this seems to make sense.

I could go for 55 profile, but then it would be under-geared. As this is the 'road' car and occasionally does autobahn work I'd prefer the taller gearing but was worried about the clearance.
Many thanks.
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Postby peterg » Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:28 pm

You have to stop talking about A310s now.....youre making me want one and I cant afford it and havent got room. Which means I'd have to sell my GTA Turbo and its cost me way more than its worth.....and I'd probably regret it.....and the girlfriend would kill me.....SO STOP!!!!!! :D
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Postby Alby » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:20 am

I have to apologise to Peterg for continuing this 310 thread on a GTA site. Unfortunately, I can't help it as I love chatting about all types of Alpines in whatever way way is available. I'm probably a lost cause - at least my wife thinks so!

If its any comfort, I had to sell my 310 V6 to get room and funds for the 310/4 and then I had to sell my 5 Turbo 2 to get a GTA and at the moment the GTA is stuck in England awaiting shipment and I can't even play with it. And yes, if I had the choice I'd also have probably bought a 110, but at least you can do more things with a 310 without being attacked for modifying such an historic car.

Hi Alpineandy - you're probably right about the V6 being easier and therefore better on longer events. I agree that its very much a horses for courses issue and can also depend on the rules you have to meet. Targa Tasmania and Classic Adelaide are my 2 targets and both run from 4 to 6 days. However each day has about 6 competitive stages ranging from 5km's to 40km's so you get breaks on the transport sections. Also both have under 2litre classes and in Targa there is actually a handicap system that would give an under 2litre about a 2 second per minute benefit compared to a V6. An A310/4 came second outright in Classic Adelaide a few years ago. It was only mildly modified but well driven. The event is more competitive these days but I think it will still suit the 4. Although engines are expensive to get more power from I'm completing and engine at the moment that should have over 160hp and it will still work out considerably cheaper than it cost me to get 240hp from the V6.

Anyway, I'll soon find out as I've arranged a track day as soon as the new engine is run in. As well as comparing with my previous V6 times a friend is also coming with his V6 fully modded to GT specs including the 193hp engine. He is also preparing for the same events and has a lot of track and tarmac rally experience, so the comparison will be interesting. I'm not expecting to keep up with him on the track but will be shattered if the difference is too much.
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Postby Alby » Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:23 am

Hi Alpine andy, I was looking at the wrong photo. As you've got the standard rear the slat approach is worth considering. I took my standard rear window/engine cover off at a track day at someone's suggestion and ran a few laps without anything there. Couldn't believe how much difference it made especially on the rear's consistency on corner entry.
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Postby Alby » Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:28 am

Hi Alpiniste,
here goes with some info about A310 / 4 cylinders as discussed previously.

Information available - English: Not much!
Reference book "Rally Cars" by Reinhard Klein has a page on each of the 4 and V6 310s. Unfortunately perpetuates the myth that the main problem with the 4 cylinders was that they were too heavy at 100kg more than the 110. Mauro Bianchi who had a big hand in their development says they were faster than the 110 anyway.

Road Tests - quite a few in english classic mags over the years but nearly all the V6. Most english tests not all that complimentary, but Australian and US ones all tended to rave about the V6. Test in Nov 2000 Classic Cars (thoroughbred & classic) c/w a Porsche 911 is about the most accurate I have seen and I've owned identical models to both used in that test.

Only one that covers the 4 is Nov 84 Classic and Sportscars - gives direct and accurate description of the driving differences between the V6 and the 4. Brooklands Books "Renault Alpine Gold Portfolio 1958-1994" has this test and many others of the 4 and all other Alpines up to the 610 - a great guide to Alpines generally.

French info - more available if you can make your way through French text with help of the pictures.

Great reference book on all Alpines - "Alpine Label Bleu" by Christian Descombes. Model and competition history.
"Alpine" by Dominique Pascal is also great for 110's and 310" but seems to have been out of print for some time. Much more competition detail.
"Mille Miles" alpine magazines has had a number of good articles and they are available on back order over their web site - issues worth getting for 4 cylinder info include no. 10 ( very comprehensive article about their design, production, etc & a great editorial by Mauro Bianchi), No 22 (article about a 310/4 restored and modified for historic rallies such as Monte Carlo) and no 32 ( article about an original competition 310/4 1800, now restored for historic rallies).

Weight
Standard car weighs 840kg's. Pretty easy to knock off about 50-60 Kg"s without ruining car. After that it gets harder.
Interior - rear seats and miscellaneous trim items, radio & speakers. replace eletric window mechanisms with windup - 16kg's. Replace front seats with competition buckets - 14kg's.
Front - remove front rubber bumper strip (2kg's), lightweight battery (8kg's), remove heater and all hoses (5kg's?).
Rear - remove rear bumper strip (2kg's), remove engine cover and replace glass with louvres (7Kg), replace air cleaner with sock or alternative (3kg's).

Suspension
These cars handle so well there may not be much room for improvement. Standard springs are relatively stiffer than on V6 and there are less rubber bushes (which is why the V6 is a better road car). I am going to start by keeping the standard springs and just replacing the shockers with adjustable rally spec koni's and with adjustable spring platforms to lower the car about 1 inch all round. Will let you know if I think it needs more.

Wheels
Standard wheels are 6.5 x 13 and are very light. Could run these quite successfully with 195/60 on front and 205/60 on rear. I have gone to 7x15 with 205/50 on front and 8x15 with225/50 on rear. With different offsets these would fit under standard guards but I have gone for more width with early look group 4 guards. Why, because ever since I first saw photo's of 310/4's in tarmac spec I have loved how they looked and wanted to do the same! Whether they are any advantage or not, who knows? By the way, standard wheels have 140mm pcd and other wheels that will fit are almost impossible to find. May be possible to change hubs to take 100 pcd wheels - I am looking into this.

Brakes
Standard is ventilated discs at front and solid disc at rear. All around 156mm from memory. On a light car, these may be fine with the right pads, braided lines, racing fluid and air ducting to the front. I am making all these mods but also planning to replace discs with 173mm peugeot 505 discs (vented front, solid rears) which I am told will bolt straight on. Am really only doing this because its easy and the greater leverage should help - brakes are unassisted on most but some cars have boosters. If keeping standard wheels, there is no room for larger discs.

Steering
At 2.5 turns lock to lock its great and has terrific feel - don't change.

Gearbox/diff.

All had 5 speed close ratio boxes. Speeds (in km's per hour) in gears at 7000 rpm with 225/50 x 15 tyres are 68, 105, 152, 202 & 237. Changing up at between 6500 rpm and 7000 rpm always brings you into the next gear at 4,500 plus and over 5000 rpm in the high gears, so ratios are fine.

Diff ratio is a problem. Its 3.27 to 1 standard and whilst this is fine for the road its too high for competition. Most Australian race tracks and tarmac rallies, you don't get to much over 200, so you never use 5th gear - a total waste. By the way the V6 is even worse in this respect as 4th goes to 220 at 7000 revs. Originally, the cars were available with an optional 3.77 diff and this would be perfect, bringing 5th down to almost where 4th is now. However, I have tried everywhere I know to find one without success. I have just gone through the exercise of pulling my gearbox out to look at the diff, and then pulling apart a number of other Renault boxes to see if their diff's might fit or be made to fit. No luck. Now going through the frustrating exercise of putting it all back together.

Engine
Early models were the same engine as in 110's with twin 45dcoe webers. Late models still the same but with djetronic fuel injection. Arguments for and against both, so its whichever meets personal preferences.
Engine is 1605cc standard and had 125 hp. (often quoted at 140, but thats to the old sae standard) You have plenty of people in England who have tons of experience with these engines and may be able to assist with diff's as well. In brief, normal mods can include bigger pistons and liners to 1774cc or 1860cc - both require some block machining, bigger cams, compression etc. Done fully, but still reliable, around 160hp should be comfortable.
Our rules require use of pump fuel, maximium 98 octane, so building a big cam, high compression, revy engine is more limited. Maximum practical compression is about 10.5 (standard is 10.25). We are therefore going down a different route that is somewhat experimental and aims to maximise torque which is important for our tarmac rallies which are all in hilly country. We're using 82.5mm pistons and sleeves which would normally give 1795cc's, but also stroking the crank to end up with 1995cc's. Stroker cranks were tried and dropped in the 70's possibly because everyone was after higher revs, max power then. We think it will be right for our needs and my engine builder is using a few secrets which he says will make a good difference and he won't even tell me what they are!
Anyway, with this size, a fair bit of head work, standard gordini spec cam, individual throttle bodies and Wolf 3d engine management I'm hoping to end up with over 160hp in an engine my granny could drive to the shops.
For tarmac rallies, I'll keep the throttle bodies but go back to the original djetronic management system. This is a rule requirement but I don't think I'll lose much by it as there is tons of info on the web on how to modify these systems to suit modified engines. If it doesn't work, then simply back to webers for those events.
By the way, these engines had a number of benefits compared with standard Renault versions or the version used by Lotus in the Europa. Besides the cross flow head, important changes were cam, valve sizes, extractors, better con rods, heavy duty oil pump.

Cooling
Standard radiator in good nick should be fine but I've replaced mine with a thicker alloy unit as a matter of course. Using twin thermo fans with an over-ride switch. Cars come standard with an oil cooler. Gets very hot in the engine compartment. I'm having the extractors treated witth the stuff that keeps them cooler (can't remember the name offhand) and the louvres will undoubtably help with letting hot air out.

That's about it. Hope the above is helpful.
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Postby Alpineandy » Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:11 pm

Alpiniste wrote:"Alby" any chance you can post info on the engine tuning, suspension setup and pics ?
I was wondering about an A310, but dont' know ANYTHING about this model in the Alpine range.
Would love to get some advice and see some results.


I don't know where abouts your based but if it's near ARR then I would suggest you pop in for a chat. Paul had an A310/4 for a few years and tweeked it quite heavily. He also knows the engine well from A310/4s and A110/1600s.
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Postby Alby » Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:50 am

Thanks Alpineandy,
Unfortunately I'm based in Melbourne, Australia, so I'd love to pop in for a chat with Paul (whose well known here by his reputation with these cars), but it won't be any weekend soon.

Its a good idea though, so I might try giving him a call to establish contact. By the way, from memory its his 2 cars in the 1984 roadtest I referred to on available Alpine info above. He had a 310/4 with some mods and had just got a V6, so the mag was able to test and compare both cars. I thought they got the driving differences down pretty well.
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Postby Alpineandy » Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:42 pm

Alby wrote: I'm based in Melbourne, Australia.


Sorry, I was advising 'Alpiniste'. :lol: (guess I didn't make it clear...)

PS, I had a chat with the previous owner of your GTA and she mentioned the work you'll have to do for your 'tests'. Have fun..... :shock:
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