A610 engine problem

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A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:24 pm

Driving the A610 in a road traffic and after 10 minutes onto a motorway and up to the legal limit after another 10 minutes engine cut out ,service and stop light on dash came on .Engine restarted and continued but problem started repeating at lower and lower speeds and any acceleration cut out soon as loud pedal pressed. Every time engine restarted either on dipping and engaging clutch or if stopped on the starter. Oil pressure normal as was water temp but help Please.



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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby BIG_MVS » Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:31 pm

Image

A long and lasting issue with A610's. Looking like heat related and or engine bay wiring. Have you got the earth strap fitted to the fuel pump relay (behind the cover between the rear seats) on your car?

I think Barry Jayes had your car back in it's life and had similar problems. Hopefully he will along to assist with what he did as one of those "fixes" may have failed again.
1989 GTA Turbo - Stratos Blue
1994 A610 - Montana Red (For Sale)
Some GTA/A610 Parts For Sale:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw ... e&_sacat=0
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:49 pm

This cutting out has only started today up to then has been fine.With two cut outs driving between Canterbury and Langley mill after about 3 hours driving last August.
A thought,a few days ago noticed an earth strap from rear of car flapping loose so bolted the other end to engine. Had it been left off deliberately as it was first time It had been driven since doing this .


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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby Bazzer501 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:37 pm

I did have similar problems with the car many years ago and thought this had been cured once and for all.
Below is a copy of an article I drafted on this for CAR's Le Journal magazine so I hope this helps,Cheers,
Barry

Cutting Out Problems with A610’s when Hot.

I’ve owned an A610 for nearly 2 years now and prior to buying it I had heard about these cars cutting out and refusing to start however this only appeared to happen after a long fast run followed by stop start driving in heavy traffic.

What follows is my own interpretation of what the problem may be. There appears to be a number of causes some of which may or may not be interrelated!

My first experience of this was whilst driving through Luton in heavy traffic. When the car suddenly cut out on a roundabout but then restarted OK, the same thing happened at the next two roundabouts after which the problem seemed to sort itself.
The next time this problem manifested itself was when Carol and I went on a trip to France. Whilst in France we completed some 400+ miles with no problems, not that we were expecting any. On our return to Dieppe to catch the Ferry we called in at the Alpine apres vent in Dieppe and after leaving their car park the car cut out twice when pulling away at junctions. Worrying but thereafter all seemed well until we arrived back in the UK.

After leaving the Ferry Terminal we decided to call into a service station on the motorway for a comfort break and when we went to leave the car would not pull away it just cut out. Finally we got the car started and were on the motorway slip road some 20 metres from the motorway… when it cut out again.
To cut a long story short after an hour or so the RAC arrived kicked the tyres and declared they could do nowt without a diagnostic machine, however by now the engine had cooled down and the car started OK. The RAC then followed us down the motorway and all seemed OK so they left us at the next junction.
All seemed fine then we arrived at the Dartford Crossing, got to the barrier, paid and as we drove through the barrier the car cut out again and would not restart. So there we were on an extremely busy Bank Holiday evening, stuck about 50 metres from the entrance to the tunnel. Needless to say the Dartford officials had to close all barriers, and clear the area so we could be pushed to safety of their yard area…major embarrassment for me and Carol refusing to go any further in the car.
Called the RAC again and we were taken home on a transporter home and on arrival the car started fine and I was able to drive it off the transporter into the garage where I gave it a good kicking!

Following this fiasco I started carrying out some research into the problem and had lengthy discussions with a number of other A610 owners some of which had had the problem whilst others had not. I also spoke to a number of Renault garages about the problem which proved as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike or a chocolate fireguard!!

The problem seemed certainly related to heat build up, normally fast motorway driving followed by stop start driving in towns. My A610 has a louvred glass fibre rear panel on it instead of the rear glass plus a well vented engine cover so this should have helped enormously however it seems to have made little difference! One school of thought was that it only affected higher mileage cars however the same problem was happening to cars that had covered only 40,000 miles.

Fuel Injectors

A number of club members have discussed this problem with French garages and French A610 owners who said that the fuel injectors could be as fault. Unlike most of the GTA’s the A610 has a catalytic converter and lambda sensor so it is essential that the injectors are performing perfectly and possibly there was some over fuelling so the ECU stopped the car to stop any damage to the cat. As my car was due for a service I had these replaced followed later by the Distributor Cap and Rotor Arm both of which are linked to poor starting problems on both GTA’s and A610’s.

Overheating ECU

This is an interesting issue and I am indebted to a number of club members who have contributed to and suggested some alterations that I have implemented.
The ECU is located behind the central cushion between the rear seats where it is bolted to the firewall between the cabin and the engine bay. On the front of the ECU is a further bracket housing a number of relays and fuses. In this location the ECU gets very hot and the thought was that at a certain temperature the ECU simply switched off to prevent any damage.

To test this theory I pulled down the rear seats, removed the soundproofing and took the car for a fast drive. When I got back I put my hand on the firewall beside the ECU and it was so hot that I couldn’t keep it there for any longer than 20 seconds, worrying!
To cure this I purchased a sheet of bubble aluminum type heat insulation material from Demon Tweeks and fitted a large panel across the central part of the firewall behind the ECU location. I then reversed the ECU panel and the panel holding the relays and fuses so that the ECU was not pressing against the firewall and was getting some air round it. A further test run in the car saw that the temperature of the ECU had reduced dramatically.
A further tweak recommended by a club member relates to the central cushion that covers the ECU, relays and fuses. On the rear of this is mounted a number of foam blocks which effectively insulates the cover and keeps the heat in so I removed these. I also cut a ventilation slot in the top of the cover so that air could flow up behind the cover and out of the top. On a car with leather trim it is possible to purchase some short round plastic tubes with bevelled edges from Homebase and the like. Circular holes can be cut and these inserted to give a really neat finish.

Conclusions So Far

Changing the Injectors, insulating the firewall and modifying the location of the ECU appears to have cured the problem with my car. To date I have driven some 14,000 miles in both the UK and France on long motorway journeys followed by lots of start/stop traffic in towns and the car hasn’t cut out once.
I still don’t know whether it was just an injector problem or just an ECU problem, both…or neither but it has worked for me.

TDC Sensor

Last but not least we have a further possible solution to A610 cutting out problems. Peter Whitehouse was getting cutting out problems with his low mileage A610 and after connecting the car to a diagnostic machine it became obvious that the problem with this particular car related to a faulty TDC Sensor. These are readily available however this is located down and behind the turbo. The recommended way of fitting one is to remove the turbo, no easy feat. However these can be replaced by a knowledgeable mechanic, with flexible arms and who knows what he is doing. With Peter’s car this cured the problem and it hasn’t reoccurred since.

Conclusion

As I stated earlier this is my interpretation of what may be causing the problem. I am no mechanic and there may be other ways of curing the problem that I am not aware of, all I know is that what I and others did worked for us.
The A610 was only built from around 1990 to 1995 and in total 804 cars were built so I guess that during this period the problem possibly never arose so Renault were not aware that the problem existed and no modifications were made to cure it.
These are cracking Alpines to drive and if your thinking of buying ones of these cars then please don’t let the problems such as this one put you off. This problem can be solved as I and others have found out.

Barry Jayes.
P.s. I did have a similar problem with my current A610 some two years ago and this was traced to frazzled wiring in the engine bay. The wiring to the injectors and to the fuel pump was replaced and I've had no problems since...touch wood!
Yellow 1993 Alpine Renault A610
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:18 pm

Hi


thanks for advice .I have not got a workshop manual so can anyone point me in the direction of the fuel pumps?



Cheers dave g
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby bazzamac » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:59 pm

The problem as described above is exactly what happened to my 1987 GTA V6 Turbo coming back from the Bathurst car races a few years back. It stopped on an overtaking lane just outside of Blayney, a small NSW town, and after about 15 minutes restarted and no problems all the way back to Canberra. Then in the next month I drove it to our French car day and it stopped and would not restart there. At the end of the day, it restarted but stopped a few times on the way home until I finally made it to my home garage. I tested all the wiring and relays and no problem. Eventually I found that it was the TDC altho I also replaced the ECU as well. The lead to the TDC was rewrapped in heat insulation and have had no problem since.
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:41 pm

decided to start at basics so looked at relays and computer behind central rear seats and found that the computer securing screws were loose allowing a lot of movement of the computer. So after taking out all the relays and cleaning contacts decided as seems to be heat related lightly glued a shaped piece of thin aluminium building insulation to back of computer and secured back in position ,
making sure couldn't contact any part of electrics
Went for a drive same length as the other day and no cutting out ,Seems to good to be true.


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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby mettersl » Sun Jul 30, 2017 8:19 pm

A610 cutting out seems to have many causes, sounds like you have an easy solution.
My current 610 seems fine, previous one was leaking injectors, a clean solved it, but wiring looms in the engine bay seems to be a common problem too.
Glad it's fixed.
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:47 am

re the information by Bazzer501
It looks as if on my car Renault have addressed the overheating ecu between the rear seats. in that there is a substantial sheet of heat shield on the firewall behind the ecu which is now held away from the firewall on long mounting nuts so it is in front of the relays. and there are two large holes in the rear seat central trim to allow heat to rise.Unless it was a Barry Jaye modification?
Have had another run and seems OK could it have been the ECU loose and rattling about or the extra insulation I tacked onto the back of the ECU


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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby mettersl » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:53 am

Any chance of a picture of the Ecu mounting?
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby Hedley » Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:50 pm

How much fuel did you have in the tank when it cut out? When mine did it I think the fuel was under a qtr of a tank. My theory is the fuel is vapour locking when it gets hot. Having more in the tank helps I think.


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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby jagcat12 » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:21 pm

re fuel according to fuel gauge there was 12 gallons which I reckon was about right
attached some photos if it was not factory fitted it is a very neat installation
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby Custard » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:44 pm

I have just finished going through all this on my 610 all of the above are possible faults but I think the main ones are over heating Ecu, old engine wiring, and bad injectors vapor locking. Renault must have known about the fuel problems that is why there is a fuel cooler from the A/C on the return pipe.
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby Bazzer501 » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:13 pm

Hi Jagcat,

All of the mod's you mentioned earlier were of my doing, that is the extra insulation and the holes in the top of the centre console cover, the rationale being to keep the ECU as cool as possible.

Cheers, Barry.
Yellow 1993 Alpine Renault A610
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Re: A610 engine problem

Postby Hedley » Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:07 pm

Another thing to check is whether the engine bay blower and suction fans are functioning correctly. When it cuts out, if you get out of the car can you hear them running? Also can you feel the hot extracted air venting down near the back wheel? It should be a powerful hot torrent of air coming out. I'm pretty sure an intermittent fault with the heat sensitive switch that activates them was a big part of my problem.


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