Yet another A610 cutting out thread.

So, I recently bought an A610. The seller told me it had 'the cutting out issue' before I picked it up, and on a brief test drive all was fine. I handed over my money and immediately I left him the car cut out about 5 times in the first mile! Brilliant.

Over the last couple of weeks ive learned quite a lot and have decided that my issue is probably different to some others. I suspect there are many root causes out there that all lead to the same final result. The ECU being put into an error state and shutting down the engine. Power cycling the ECU clears the fault, it runs again and then trips with the same fault.

My particular cutting out issue is clearly related to heat and engine load. From stone cold the car is absoloutely fine. So long as you keep moving it remains fine. However, as soon as you have stopped for any length of time, or got stuck in traffic, and given the engine bay a bit of heat soak, then the next time you try to drive the car is initially almost undrivable, if you persevere and get some airflow into the engine bay it progressively becomes better and better. 10 mins on the motorway at low load (low heat!) and high speed so some air gets wafted about and the car is robust again.

Also, once you are in a situation where things are hot and its cutting out regularly, it will only cut out when you apply slight load. It will idle fine, and rev fine, but as soon as you load the engine to drive the car it will cut. Also, as you start to cool the car again by driving, the load you need to apply to cause the engine to cut increases. Its actually really quite predictable in when it will cut out.


At the moment my engine bay cooling fans are not working, however in only 1.5miles of normal driving this morning from cold (totally trouble free), it was enough to make it cut out 6 times on the 1.5 mile return journey. I have added a few thermocouples into the engine bay to read the temperatures we are talking about and in the region of the engine bay fan switch sensor by the turbo were only at an air temp of about 60 degrees, long before the fans would have kicked in and the problem is already very apparent.


I've read in some detail all that has been discussed before regarding this issue. I have added a ground to the fuel pump relay. No change. The ECU is also not over heating as the problem is no different with the ECU laid out on top of the trans tunnel. The relays them selves are not hot either. I think the previous owner had tried to add the ground wire for the relay too, but seen as he'd added it to the AC compressor relay it hadn't had the effect he was after either.

Other things I have tried:

I've tried to override the 12V side of the switching wires at fuel pump relay but figure I must be backfeeding 12V somehow as the whole car switches on! (not hard to hotwire a 610 then!). Ive not actually tried to drive in this state but I'll try that soon I think.

I'd read about lambda sensor issues and damage to the wiring on a car causing issues when the car is hot, so I've inspected all my wiring and found no clear fault. I've also driven with the signal wire for the lambda disconnected (left the two heater wires connected though) and the problem remains.

Im also aware that my car is missing a heatshield over the CAT that I can see present in the manual, with the coil pack mounted above it I wondered it it was getting too hot when the engine bay was allowed to heatsoak so I put a thermocouple on that too, but the problem is clear at only about 50 degrees on the coil casing so I cannot see that it the issue.


It seems clear to me that there is a fault state that the ECU is encountering once its been hot in the engine bay. And that this fault state is also related to engine load, as it only when under some load (and not even very much actually) that it will stop.

Its also important to state that the cut out is sharp and immediate, it is the ECU cutting Inj or Ign. It is not simply the fuel pressure dropping as a result of the fuel pump being turned off. Unless there is a fuel pressure strategy in the ECU that will cut Inj or Ign in the event of a drop in fuel pressure? I remember my 200SX used to stop in the same way if you ran it so low on fuel that it surged while driving hard to look after itself and not run lean on boost. (though it came back itself when the fuel pressure was good again) Does an A610 do something similar?

My next steps are to try and run it with various (presumably non critical) sensors disconnected. If I find one that with it disconnected it runs without cutting out, even if it runs like a bag of nails, then its the next place to start looking. (Will it run without TPS, or the temp sensor in the throttle body for example? - ill be able to let you know soon!)

This is a long one I know so thanks for reading. Any thoughts would be warmly welcomed.

If anyone has a picture of the wire they grounded that might help. Trial and error showed me the relay controlling the fuel pump was not the one it claimed to be in the car manual! I'm pretty sure I got the right one, but best to be sure - even though im thinking less and less that grounding the fuel pump switched ground is going to help my particular cut out issues.

I'll try anything though!

Cheers all.

[pgoldsmith]

Crankcase sensor?
Well known issue on GTA, not sure if it's the same case for the A610 - heatshield breaking down, heat affecting the sensor.

I'd be tempted to change the coil pack (I assume 610's use the same as most Renaults inc the GTA) so approx. 20 quid - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-NGK-Igniti ... 540a832b98

(Clee can probably advise if that's correct)

And change the TDC sensor. More of a pain as it's a hassle to get to, but again not too expensive and the magnet will degrade with age and heat. If it doesn't see a crankshaft position then the ECU won't be able to work at all and you'll cut out.

Both will cause faults on GTAs and 610s as they degrade with age and it always seems to be with a warm / hot engine. I had issues with my GTA in the past with both TDC and coil pack when hot. (I've driven over 120K miles in the GTA though so have probably seen it all )

Can it always restart after switching on and off or are there occasions when this won't work? If it always restarts then I'd suggest it's neither of the above and perhaps a dry joint on the ECU as some have hypothesised ....... however the 610 issue is specific and well documented in the way it manifests itself. Yours seems potentially a bit more generic and I'd always start with the simpler option. Good old Occam's razor again.

Update: Thought I had it sorted, but I haven't..

So, like I said earlier I started unplugging sensors and running without them. I pulled the plugs from both the TPS and the temp sensor in the throttle body. (Always change one thing at a time..!) and went for a drive.

I gave it beans for 10 mins, the sort of driving I've never been able to do before because it would start to cut out.. And I got home again without a single cut-out. It had never been like that before. Thinking deeper into it.. Not having TPS should make the throttle response much worse, but it wasn't any different to drive. I was expecting it to be terrible, but it was no worse than usual. I've been accepting of the fact that the engine response isn't like a modern car, but perhaps I have a dead/dying TPS that is really upsetting the ECU when hot I thought...

My engine bay thermocouples told me it was 105degrees under the engine cover so I gave it 10 mins with the lid up, and then another 10 mins with the lid down. During this time I jumped the gun, rang my mate who was helping me earlier today to tell him I thought we'd got it nailed. I then went out for another drive.. It cut out three times before the end of my road. 200 meters. Normal service resumed.

No idea what was different on that one drive that it was fine on. I made no changes and the problem returned for next time. Very frustrating.



I'm done for tonight.. I'm thirsty..

Thank you for the ideas above,

Ive had a good look at my coil and it looks different to the one at the end of the link above so I suspect the 60 and GTA coils might be different. Someone may be able to confirm or deny?

Im assuming 'Crankcase' sensor and 'TDC' sensor are the same thing? A crankshaft position sensor looking at some teeth rotating on the crankshaft?

Where abouts is this fitted? is it deep in the vee where I'll need 3 wrists and 7 elbows to get at it? Front or rear of engine?

I had an issue with the crank position sensor on an old Sierra of mine, sure enough when that wasn't giving the signal it should the engine stopped dead. But as soon as it was good again the engine fired back into life without resetting the ECU. Do we know if the A610 ECU would latch a fault state if it misses a few teeth on the crank? or if it would go straight back to a running state once it had refound the crank position?

Another thing that might hold a clue.. My car always takes about 3 seconds of cranking before it fires. A fuel injected car should be able to fire after only a couple of rotations of the crank so it can either find the missing tooth, or get Cam/Crank synchronization using a camshaft position sensor too. Do other A610's fire almost straight away or is this slightly longer cranking period normal?

Thank you

On the gta, it is at roughly the 2 o'clock position, below the turbo, the oil drain is in the way a bit.
I removed mine from the top but apparently it is easier from the bottom.

There is a resistance check you can do firstly, the numbers are in the manual. I don't have them to hand, since the technical section was removed. However you could email Steve dell for him to send you the PDF for your car and electrical section.

Yes tdc and crank sensor are one and the same.

That link to the coil by the way only shows the core. That inserts into the base unit as it were so the overall coil pack does indeed look different. I only replaced that part though as it's the part that does the work. Another example below listed for the 610. Worth ruling out for 20 quid in my view.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-NGK-Ignit ... 0959077654

Hope that helps.

Mine cranks over for a good couple of seconds then fires and settles into idle. It certainly never starts instantly so yours sounds normal. Renault certainly acknowledged an issue on the GTA with the TDC sensor causing this exact fault. They then specced an item with uprated heat shielding. This is probably worth replacing with a genuine part too at least rule it out on yours.

I don't know a Gta turbo that does not start on the button even after being sat for a week or so.
So you are maybe onto something there, as you say pointing towards crank sensor or break down in HEIU. Can't say I know if the starting characteristics of an a610 though.

Note I have a Gta HEIU ignition unit you can use for fault finding if you wish.
Just sat on my shelf.

Regarding engine bay fans, they have two speeds and generally only kick in after sat in non moving traffic for several minutes or after you have shut down the car, they usually kick in a minute or two later and go on and of for several minutes.
The sensors are easy to check they are on a bracket near the turbo heat shield. Easy to check (instructions in manual for temp test) if you want them to come on quicker you can bend bracket closer to the turbo. Note it is possible to wire them up incorrectly if removed. Check just by shorting the wires on the back.

Dave

[BIG_MVS]

Welcome SteveC to both clubs - RAOC and the A610 Cut out club.

I feel your pain I really do. Been there got the T Shirt. Could you tell us which car you have bought as it might help you as most cars are known and what work has been done, is it the one recently up north from ebay in Red L101 FOM?

My fuel pump relay is earthed and to be honest it's probably going to stay that way although I am open to some testing. The car runs faultlessly with it attached. Have you definitely got a good earth to it? One way to confirm is to turn your ignition on and the fuel pump should either stay on all the time or prime and cut off if you could confirm?

Hi, L101 FOM is indeed now my car. Steve who sold it me was up front about the cutting out, though perhaps not totally open about the severity of the problem!

Still he was selling, so that what you do. Unfortunately I've tried to call him a few times since I got back to discuss previous work he's done to try and find this but for what ever reason he's not answered the phone. I tried to reassure him im not annoyed, just want to understand what's already known.

This coming weekend I plan to fit new spark plugs, coil, TDC sensor. I will also install some additional cooling ducted into the vee and to any other hotspots. I have plenty of bits laying about that will help me with some Blue Peter fabrication to make some trial extras stuff. Ill use 12V from either the back of the starter or alternator, fuse it, and then switch with a relay a 3" marine ventilation blower and duct the air to where I need with some hear resistant ducting. (We call it 'Donkey D1ck' in the motorsport world. Ill leave it to you to imagine why).

I don't intend to leave it there forever but if I can keep cool air blowing about over various bits and improve the cutting out it will help me diagnose which part getting hot is making the ECU throw its toys out.

My car also drives no differently with both the TPS and the temp sensor in the throttle body totally disconnected as to if they are plugged in.. I presume this points to the TPS not being functional as it should make a big difference to drivability. The wires as they exit the sensor certainly don't look very nice, ill get my meter in there later and see if they are shorted.

A question, if anyone knows the answer.. Is the engine bay cooling fan, the blower, not the extractor, the same between GTA and A610?

Thank you all for your support now and in the future. I hope to be able to repay it once im more up to speed with this car!

Welcome SteveC to both clubs - RAOC and the A610 Cut out club.

I feel your pain I really do. Been there got the T Shirt.

May I suggest we actually get a few T shifts made.. We could probably do it in enough numbers to make it worthwhile..!

[BIG_MVS]

And the fuel pump relay earth?

Have you definitely got a good earth to it? One way to confirm is to turn your ignition on and the fuel pump should either stay on all the time or prime and cut off if you could confirm?

Trust me it will ease the pain.... Check the members section I have posted a pic on your other thread.

There does seem to be more than one issue that owners have experienced. The Hotwired fuel pump fix does not resolve mine, however, mine has only occurred on a couple of occasions on the hottest of days when I'm stuck in a traffic jam. It's fine if the roads are clear. Sounds as though yours is the same albeit much more often problematic. This suggests to me that your lack of cooling fan operation is making it more extreme. My fan is pretty noisy so I'm wondering if it's running way below optimum efficiency and not doing its job. I'm going to see if I can get a new one. I'm 100% convinced my issue is down to heat build up.

My fuel pump relay is earthed and to be honest it's probably going to stay that way although I am open to some testing. The car runs faultlessly with it attached. Have you definitely got a good earth to it? One way to confirm is to turn your ignition on and the fuel pump should either stay on all the time or prime and cut off if you could confirm?

I got myself somewhat confused when I was earthing the coil side of my fuel pump relay, I started with the one on the most offside of the car, drivers side. This one has the heaviest load cables on it. This one I suspected from the fact the whole car switched on when I artificially gave it 12V and gnd must have been the Ign relay (though in the owners manual it's not labeled as such). The next one along appeared to be the fuel pump relay. However simply grounding the ground wire in the coil connections did not start the pump artificially. my multimeter probing suggested it was the 12V side that went high to start the pump and it was that that was ECU controlled, I accept that this is not what everyone else has found so perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick. I'm working without wiring diagrams though so its impossible to know what I may have been backfeeding with 12V that was then turning other thing on in the background. When I gave it an artificial 12V and gnd, again the whole car switched on. I concluded this was the FP relay as with the wiring standard configuration and the fuel pump relay removed the car switched on as normal on the key but with no fuel prime cycle on the pump. When I put the FP relay in with the ignition on it did the prime and then switched off. So it must be controlled by pressure and not simply run for a time period and then cut to prime the system.